Joe & Isha

Joe Schwabacher interviewed by Isha Bhandaru

Isha Bhandaru Okay, cool. So today we’re gonna be talking about Joe’s piece. Is there a specific name for this? No. It’s titled nah Yeah, Untitled. But it depicts a phone being thrown into a cave. And then the camera angle switches into a logo that says, O T A, which is short for off the air. Um, so first, I really like that the shift in like, the camera angle and the changes and how complex the background is, is there a reason why you wanted to make it so detailed rather than just like distilling it down to just like a singular felt one.

Joe Schwabacher Um, I kind of wanted to make it like, more immersive, like, I felt like it’d be kind of cool to like, actually feel like you’re throwing away but I like the point of view, kind of camera work rather than just having like an illustration. I like the kind of there’s ways to inspire certain feelings through like this kind of poster but I feel like not a lot of people were doing more of like the photorealistic kind of words like I assume most people are probably doing on stuff so I kind of wanted to switch it up

IB nice yeah, I really enjoyed looking at it because it looked a lot more complex and a lot of the other blender stuff that I had been like looking at is there was a called a specific meaning behind up there and like why you’re incorporating that into this specific protest and what does that have to do with throwing away your throne

JS I think it was more of just like I think off the air like kind of just has a lot of meanings but in this sense what I was thinking I was just like over reliance on technology versus trying to like actually be in the present more so I feel like that’s kind of why there’s that like sharp camera angle shifts from like, looking down at your phone to then like realizing like remembering like what’s around you so I think like that’s the purpose like it’s the essence of the poster is more of like trying to be a reminder to myself, but also like to other people obviously I just like being in the present like not being always like on connected like not always being online like being like off off the air like off the chin or whatever off the grid which I think is Yeah,

IB make sense. I like how you are connecting like this more like class oriented project to something like more personal like in your life and also to another protest topic. It was really cool to see like all the overlaps. Um, is there are there any like challenges or anything that you faced with the program or like coming up with this idea at all like throughout the creative process

JS um, I was having like some renderer issues with the phone I was trying to make like the rigid body physics behave correctly like man it’s my first time actually like animating moving parts in blender like besides like the little ones who didn’t class so it was was just like really hard because like there were almost any cave meshes like available online for some reason. So that kind of limited my options and then also just wanted the phone like bounce around a lot. But past that, like there aren’t too many pieces to it. Perhaps in like a later version, I would make like the plane orbiting around, like the interior text that was kind of my initial vision. But yeah,

JS Oh, I actually hadn’t even really thought about that. I was kind of just like, basic mechanics down because like when I was trying to I was thinking about putting something specific on the screen like it was. I was struggling to find something I was like God realized enough to be applicable to a lot of people while also not being contrived, like, I was just about, like the Instagram homescreen on like, I think it’s a little bit too corny. Like, it just seems a little bit too, like, I don’t like yoga. So that’s why I just kind of had it blank for now, but that’s something I would definitely like think more about in the future. It’s hard to find something representative that like, I don’t personally feel like that personally feels like not recommendable, but like it’s something that I would want to, like, emphasize, like, you know, put it down, while at the same time not like criticizing anyone specifically for like online habits.

IB are so for the phone, I know that you wanted to like make something specific on the phone screen. Are you doing like, is that going to be happening as well in any version or?

IB Like not choosing a specific like thing to be like, get off this, but just more like, devices in general. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that’s really cool. I like that. Message, inclusiveness and criticism. But, um, yeah, um, another thing that I thought was really interesting was, like, why did you choose a cave like, you could have just like, thrown into a field or something was like, specific about like, a cable, like any deeper meaning to the piece other than just like, throw your phone away? That was kind of just like, that had to do with the idea behind this piece. And like, what does like being off the air? Like, why is that important to you?

JS Um, I think like, if you had to pick out the like, deeper meaning of the cave, I just feel like there’s a lot of like, isolation that occurs when you’re too invested, like, in online things. And I know for like, some people that having online communities like is really helpful, like, as a space for friends, but at the same time, it can kind of cut you off from the rest of the world. Like, I think almost everyone at the school experience, kind of the effects of overindulgence in like, the online world due to the pandemic, so to me, it just kind of felt like you’re in a cave, right? Like, even though you may have all the real world outside, like right in front of you. It was way easier to like, stay kind of, like locked in on what was like, most grabbing your eye. So like, in that sense, like, it’s kind of hard to escape like, it’s murky, like, it’s still fun, like people like exploring caves, but you don’t get trapped in the cave. So I guess that was more of my, my thinking, rather than just like thrown on the ground or something. It’s like a big thing. Like, it’s kind of a trying to represent like, a separation you know, like, because at them they like everyone loves the phone, like I love my phone. It’s really useful. But I think there’s definitely like mental different mental like organizations you can have in terms of like how you regard it right, like I think being conscious of maybe like your reliance or like addiction to like online entertainment. Kind of like reshaped my relationship with my cell phone personally.

IB I think I also really like the like, I know you were saying earlier that there weren’t that many like cave meshes to choose from but like I really liked how like dark it was and I honestly think it worked out really well because it almost looks like a black hole that you can be like sucked into which just goes more to like the meaning that you were talking about earlier. And I think like all of the visual choices like really work together. And that sounds like you’re going into like this mossy cave rather than like something more like rigid and rocky and then you’re going to this like really bright beautiful grassy field with like your logo and stuff like that. So I really respect how like everything kind of goes well together even though you were choosing from this minimal selection in terms of like the camera pan I was really curious about this like how did you make it in blender like just like swish like that like go back and forth and make it so smooth? Like were you playing with the distance of the actual like cave and stuff or were you like moving the camera and somehow turning that into like stop motion brains

JS do you mean like how I get it from like looking at the cave to them like looking up at like the rest of stuff

IB yeah like You’re like constantly like moving around like your your angle and your view like for me for moving like my object like I moved the object itself but like because there was like so much turning like I was curious like how you were able to do that through Blender

JS Yeah, it was all just keyframes on the camera rotation so like just there are a lot of keyframes in this for like, the logo rotation of light that moves above the logo is kind of hard to see. But it’s yeah, it’s like there’s a changing light. It’s all just kind of keyframed in, but I love keyframes, shout out keyframes. But yeah, the camera like knew this was just kind of a one to keyframe there. I think it’s definitely easier than like moving all your objects out of the way just like moving the camera.

IB No, definitely. I mean, that’s cool. I never thought about like actually doing like keyframes with it. It’s interesting. Yeah,

JS it makes your life a lot easier.

IB I try it out, I was just like fully just every small tiny frame moving the object. Yeah, that’s nice. And so I know that your goal for this semester was trying to get more familiar with Blender. So do you feel like you’ve accomplished that?

JS You know, I think it’s been a journey. It definitely is an ongoing goal of mine. I have a friend who like leveled up his blender skills this semester, that was really inspiring to me. I ended up having a really busy end to the semester. So I perhaps didn’t learn as much as like, maybe I’d have imagined kind of just by nature of not having, you know, a lot of spare time. But I think this summer, I’ll probably be pretty bored. So maybe I’ll get around to it and start whipping some crazy shit up. But yeah, I mean, I definitely went from zero to like, workable like I can. If you can follow a Google tutorial you can do like most stuff in Blender. So it’s definitely a nice beginner skill to have. Your skills have increased.

IB I can operate the system. I’m not sure if I’m the best at it. I can’t say that I exactly know what I’m doing. But I can confidently say I know how to make metal balls so I’m proud

JS Yeah, it’s like the little functions that go along with like USB stick.

IB I feel like once you just like start learning what the menu is then you like can just follow any tutorial and everything works like Yeah,

JS have you tried doing the shader stuff?

IB Like shading the actual object gizmo

JS here, right? I’ll show you. Let me let me screen cancer check. If you like go into blender like see I thought like but it was all just like using the menus, like, you know, there’s like so many menus at the top and like each of them has like 5 million sounds like all shit. But like when I was started going to some of these tutorials to figure out how to do some harder stuff. Like they all just use the shading tab within like you have a grid of like all your objects and like how their inputs tie in here. Let me send you a screenshot. I’m gonna text you a screenshot just so you can see what I’m talking about. But I thought was kind of cool because like it the abstracts like what like the art individual pieces, like into all mental breakdowns like you have the color file and materials file and like all the lighting files at all, like come into like the actual output which I thought was pretty cool, but I just didn’t really know that about where it started.

IB That’s so cool. You can just see everything that’s going on. Yeah. I feel like half the battle is just knowing what button to click.

JS Yeah, yeah. Do you have any blender goals in particular do you see yourself using in the future not really.

IB Okay, I really like blender in the sense that like whenever you have an animation assignment, I really enjoy the fact that it can do the physics for you. Like you just do the hard part of setting it up and then everything else just goes for you. Which is why like I do want to get better at it. I need to sit down take the time though, because I’m like, very technologically challenged. Like I’m a very technologically challenged person in general. I’m more like analog or like to work on paper. So it’s like it’ll the learning curve is there for everyone but I feel like it’s slightly more steep for me. But I do want to try like download on my laptop try it out over the summer like Goosander that you’re doing because I think it’d be super useful especially like for my design minor and like maybe incorporating into like my fine art stuff

JS you see it differently or like against you regarded differently from like the other visual art forms and now you can practice like I mean, they’re obviously I mean to me they’re both art forms but like to you is this more like a technical skill or is it kind of just like an art like the rest of the stuff you do?

IB I feel like it’s a technical skill like in the sense where it’s like if I want to make a digital art piece and I want to make it move somehow I can use Blender if I want to. Like but that’s like the same way as like procreate is a skill set in the sense where it’s like, I can draw something digitally. I think like lately like these pads two semesters I’ve been doing so much digital work like I do want to go back to like in person like sculpting and stuff but I do see how like blender like I think it’d be nice to incorporate things in Blender into an art piece if that makes sense. Like maybe like make something on blender project that into an installation piece, or something like that. So it might be cool to like incorporate it. It’s like one additional little tool in my little toolkit that I that I want to use in the future.

JS Yeah, super cool. I don’t know if you saw the like the visuals of the actual off their event, but those are all blender. They all had blender underpinnings, at least.

IB We I actually couldn’t go because I was in the hospital. But yeah, but I will be there next semester. And I better see all the blender renderings. I was so sad. I was like, getting ready to go and then I had to get a hospital.

No, like for myself. Like I wouldn’t do like ambulances and everything. Oh, my God. No, that’s good. I was so sad. I felt so bad because I was so excited to go and then like, I got discharged at like 11 like right when it started. And then I was just like to drugged up to be able to go. But I will be back next semester.

JS Honestly, on morphine.

IB probably would have honestly, I should have just gotten bit the bullet by our last semester, send me that invite, I will be there.

JS Fair enough. Um, should we pivot? Or do you have anything else to say on this one?

IB I don’t have any specific questions about yours. But yeah, we want to pivot. And we can have like a casual conversation and whatever works.

JS Let me see if it’s anything else. Um, I think we talked about Yeah.

IB Yeah, I just like, overall, like final notes. I really really liked your blender thing. I was like, super, super impressed, like throughout your entire, like, creative process. Because like, you know, as an excuse, I’ve been like seeing you work away on it, like, every single class period. And I thought it was like super impressive, like, not only that you were able to like be super self guided. And like, I think you only asked every like, one question. Like, that was crazy to me. Like, I’m someone who like leached off of him. Like I think it’s crazy that you were able to be like so self guided and be able to create something like so large scale and impressive by yourself. And I think you should be really proud of your work. I really applaud. applaud you for your progress this semester.

JS Thank you. Yeah, I think coming from a technical background, you just build a lot of problem solving skills. You’re also just like a lot of things carry over in weird ways. Like, I don’t know, I feel like once you like mess around with like, blender for a while, like, when you try other programs, like things will make sense. It’s like where how things are organized, honestly. But yeah. Google’s your friend, bro.

IB Oh, it definitely is. But um, yeah. How does that have anything to do? Those have a lot to do with like, your sales background? Like being in engineering and like, doing all that stuff? Like, these computer programs and design? Oh,

JS yeah. I mean, like, that’s what I was trying to say is like, they don’t directly apply. But I feel like just having a technical background, I think there are a lot of things well, so just like I have use some sort of design software since I was like, eight years old, like, not intensively,

IB but it’s just like, what? Hello, like, I

JS went to a camp when I did Photoshop and I was like eight and it was like, oh my god that’s but like, I don’t know, I feel like there are a lot of like, basic shortcuts like the like knowing, like shift is add and like option is minus or like whatever, blah, blah, blah. They just make your life a lot easier. And they’re like yeah, okay, you verse.

IB Yeah, I totally get that. Yeah. Like that for Photoshop for me. I like to

JS I mean, you have like a stem humans. Yeah.

IB I was reading textbooks and writing on white board.

JS Yeah, that’s fair. I guess it’s just like a system of it’s like it’s piece by piece. It’s the same way as compsci like piece by piece. You’re like build shit up. Yeah, but yeah, we can. We can pivot.

Isha Bhandaru interviewed by Joe Schwabacher

Joe Schwabacher Okay. And let’s see what’s in with your piece. You got some chain action or some door action. You got some plaque action. You got some motion? Generaly, give me a little overview or give a title for this piece.

Isha Bhandaru What about nepotism?

JS Nepotism? Where? So tell me about like, what? What were some? Let’s just start with the door and start with the door. Tell me about your design choices with the door color the door, what the door looks like. sighs like, who are we in the scene or read observer? Are we someone outside the door, we summon inside the door, what’s going on, in your view.

IB So described in my words, this GIF image, that motion is like you are looking at a purple door. It’s like a house door. It’s nice painted, polished, pristine condition, brand new looking. And it’s chained up with silver chains. And it’s violently shaking, but you are looking from the outside. So it’s up to viewers interpretation, it’s shaking, it has chains on it. Some people might say that you’re locked in, some people might say that you’re locked out. Or something is locked behind the door, and it’s trying to get out. But regardless, the door is locked. And you are looking at this door that has this shiny gold plaque on it that says art world established a long time ago.

JS So the chains and the door. It doesn’t seem as if they’re designed to be like weakening, like in Munich, given that it is a video format. And is pretty looped. It seems like this kind of goes on to kind of struggle against the chains and the lock edge of the door. Do you have anything to comment on? What that may mean for your you know how people may read this image? Being that like, it doesn’t seem like it’s a roading doesn’t seem like the thing, whatever inside is about to bust out. It seems like it’s kind of held in by these strong multiple chains.

IB Yeah. So I think it’s like, I think that goes to the interpretation of like, nothing can go in, and nothing can also come out like ever. And I think that has to do with the title, like nepotism, like my protest was kind of just about like how, like I protest was about like how, like, in the art world, like there’s no way to get in unless you have some sort of connection or in a sense, like the key to the lock, that’s like binding all of these chains together. So like, in a sense, like that is right, like they’re not supposed to weaken, because there is no way to get from one side to the other. That means like people who are in the art world right now for them to get out of it, or for people who want to get into the art world to be able to get into it.

JS And do you think you would have changed anything if you had, instead of like the art world been focused on another legacy affected or nepotism effected portion of you know, our dominant society such as perhaps like, careers? Or like college admissions? Or is there something about like, this specific implementation here that you think is specific to the art world? Or Could it really be applied to like, all these situations at once?

IB I think an essence it could like the idea of it could be applied to everything. But the reason why I tried like to argue that this is specific to the art world is in the sense, like, I don’t think you would really use a door for like, careers. Like I feel like maybe you might use like a conveyor belt, like warming, like figurines that are the same and like, and stuff like that, like, kind of using metaphors for like things that relate to that job. area. I think when I think of the art world, it’s kind of like this, like, big gate that’s like this shiny door that’s like pristine condition. So like elevated and elegant that like you can’t even open that because you’re too poor. Like, you’re this peasant who’s like trying to enter this like super magical Castle type thing. And so that’s why I chose the door because I think it’s like the easiest way to communicate that like we’re closing the door on you. And this is like this beautiful gateway into this like, avant garde like elevated world that mainly POCs or people who don’t have money like aren’t allowed to get into Again, I think that’s one thing I did want to change about my piece. Like if I had more time later, like make it more specific to my actual meaning.

JS I know that I understand that you come from a joint engineering background of STEM. And art is it biology

IB is biology.

JS So I had a question for you. And that’s that coming from this perspective of both, like two very different industries, or I guess, two fields that are rewarded in very different ways. Or at least, like their success is measured in very different ways. One is, like, pretty professional, one doesn’t have the same kind of professional infrastructure. I was wondering if that perspective, seeing kind of both are two different sides of what you know, career success may be, if that affected how you shaped this piece at all.

IB Like, I think the distinction between those who has something that I’ve always been like, struggling with like, even now, like, literally last week, I was like, deciding, like, whether I wanted to continue on to med school, or like, go and try out like doing art properly and stuff like that, it’s always something to grapple with. Because the two worlds are like, so different. And I think it also affects like other aspects of life, like, like, the social series that you’re in. And like that also mean that, like, I have, like, my creative set of friends, or some set of friends and like, I think this also has to do with like, this piece as well. Or it’s like, I think my beauty of this piece, though, is I like it could also apply to like, stem and stuff like that, I think and then also just like applying to like that decision between the two, I think anything like, like the creative process of like, creating this was like, to the art world, but like that stalemate of like, this locked door, also has to do with like, not being able to decide between the two. And like, for me, like me, deciding against going into the art world was because of this. In specifically like the fact that like, as someone who is Indian, an Indian female, like I don’t have and no one in my family is in the art world, like, I don’t have any connections. So the thought of me like trying to, like make it for myself in industry, like, as much as I would love it. Like, it’s like my dream. I know, realistically, like, it’s most likely not possible for me to be able to live off of like myself and be an artist straight off the bat. The like this, kind of like, the shaking of the door. And like the violence behind it. And like, almost like anger is like also, I guess channeled into the fact like, why I think people like me, and also like a lot of people like lean more towards stem and decide to like go back on art world, because they can’t get in.

JS So in the decision you had to make, like a week ago about continuing to prepare to try art, you ended up with a pre med check.

IB I think so I’m gonna still do both. I but I think I just like I’m serious about medical school now in the sense of where it’s like, I’m gonna take the MCAT over summer, I’m gonna apply to medical schools, rather than like going the MFA route and stuff like that. But who knows, maybe I’m a senior, and I just decide to just take a shot at an MFA. I don’t know. But like, I think it’s something that I will always keep going back and forth about for like my entire life, which is why like, I want to learn all these skills like for art, so I can like, if I do decide to go back to it later, like I can still be successful artists

JS who prefer to prefer? Yeah. It’s definitely something to be said about, like, how art is regarded within like our educational I guess kind of set up in curriculum, from, you know, elementary school onwards to second and higher education. Because, like, I feel like if you had said the same thing, in like, Middle School in high school, the obvious answer would be like, Oh, you can just do both, like art is like a, like a hobby. It’s like a side project. But like when faced with like, the real realities of like, you know, like med school is gonna beat your ass, or like doing an MFA. It’s gonna like, obviously require time and like studio projects. It’s just a very tough thing to like, have to relinquish what maybe a creative outlet, and like the furthering of your potential there to like, do something that maybe more capitalistic ly inclined, but at the same time, like, do you feel like in order to progress your art career that you need the MFA, or is it kind of just something that like you would do if you could? And now it’s like, kind of harder to

IB I think part of an MFA, for me at least isn’t for learning like the artistical. Of course, that’s an added bonus. But I think it’s like really nice. It’ll like shoot you up in the air rather than sense. Like you are surrounded only by people whose life is art. And I think that’s so different compared to like undergraduate, like education. Like, even though I’m an art major, and, like, a lot of my classes do have people who are like taking, like art class for fun, or like, they’re, like, majoring in it, but they’re like, like me, like, you know what I mean? Like they’re thinking about going to med school or like, stuff like that, where I feel like if you go and do an MFA, you’ll meet professors, you’ll meet other students who are trying to just be as successful as you, you can make the connection that you need to. And on top of that, like, you’ll be able to, like form that drive and like realize, like, what an art career looks like. I think if you have the drive yourself, you can totally do it without the MFA. But I think there’s a lot of stuff that comes along with it, that say you start working for clients, instead of being your own boss, like, I think having a higher education, even if you are an artist, like, unfortunately, in the Super capitalistic world, like, it’s just like education is prioritized by people who are hiring others. And so if they see that I’m afraid they’re gonna be like, you’re more qualified, I’ll hire you. Well enough, yeah, I don’t know, I just feel like this whole project was very much so like, it came from a like, when asked to think of something I wanted to protest, I wanted to choose something that was more personal to me, because I knew that like, in wonder, since my blender skills aren’t great. I couldn’t really incorporate like, actual, like, personal objects in it, but I could incorporate a personal meaning. And so I wanted to choose something that like, I strongly believe about, and something that has affected me for a very long time. And I feel like this, like protests, like I’ve been protesting this since like, middle school, basically.

JS Yeah, I really appreciate the subject choice. Because it’s like very, I mean, I certainly it’s very personal, if you have a long standing connection, and is one of those things like I feel when we’re learning about protests are a lot of the times, people felt as if like, there’s nothing else they could do. Besides, like, make art, like sometimes your protests are, you know, fall on deaf ears, or like, you don’t really have an outlet or a place to like, or some people might not call it justification for the protest, but that’s why I really appreciated how like, regardless of how simple like the actual blender part may be that it’s still like, very poignant, which I think resonates well with like the examples of the protest art that we saw earlier. Like, for example, like the upside down pink triangle, like that’s the whole, like, in the same way, like, you don’t need the advanced blender skills to get across, like, the message that you were trying to do. And I think you did that very well.

IB Thank you. Yeah, no, I do admit that I asked for a lot more help than I was anticipating. But I really tried to come up with something that’s more conceptual, so that I could shine in that way. But, ya know, I’m like really proud of it and how it turned out, I just hope it renders properly next time when I try again, because the words were just not working.

JS You have any other major learnings from this class that you’re taking away perhaps employee in this project?

IB I think, for me, I realized like certain this class has made me appreciate Photoshop more than I ever have before, because I absolutely despise illustrator now. And but it made me realize how much I love Photoshop as well, because I stopped using Photoshop completely and use Illustrator to do things that I did on Photoshop. And so it taught me the difference between the two. And in terms of Blender, it I guess, like, I’ve always been so like, hell bent on using skills and stuff that I already know, like, throwing myself out into the deep ended like, struggling, like genuinely struggling for like extended periods of time. Even though like I hated every minute of it, it still taught me like okay, like, I still have a lot to learn and like, even if it sucks, like I can still make like cool things. And instead of like, my next goal being like, a super complicated project, like let’s make it more simple, have this settle down and do something cool with the software. I think I have this habit of like being extremely ambitious on my project. So like, it really taught me how to like boil things down to like, the essence like okay, let’s just, we’re not making a castle here. We’re just going to take the door of the castle. Like my initial idea was literally have the frame and the door like bulge out of it, but we were like, That’s too much. So let’s just have Out the door, go back and forth. And let’s see how that works. And I think I think that was a really useful skill to learn.

JS Yeah, yeah. I mean, I know, I’ve seen you do some ambitious projects before, like your 11 layer. Like screenprint those was before layers, so definitely get challenged for warrants. Yeah, I’d like to. So we touched on a lot of different topics. I think it was cool to have covered like, a lot of things like in significant detail, though, like, like, when you really look back on it, like he was right. He was like, Yeah, we did. Tax we did a little bit of Photoshop, we did blender, Illustrator, elements of design, we did animation, and blah, blah, blah. I thought that was really cool. It’s because like, it’s hard to find a class at Penn that like, that gives you breath, while at the same time, like actually hitting like a usable or like, interesting level of depth. So like that?

IB No, definitely. And I think it like if you asked me before, to just like teach myself these things, like I never would have been able to so having like a controlled environment where there’s someone always there to be able to be like, hey, like, try this or watch this. It was really helpful. And it took off that stress and pressure of like, trying to learn something on your own. I don’t even know blundering this before joining this class. So it was great to like, learn that things exist, too.

JS Yeah, shout out Avery.

IB Yeah, for real. He’s He’s a real one for putting up with all our shenanigans.

JS Your shenanigans.

IB I wasn’t mad. It’s too much.

JS Sometimes. Yeah. For sure.

IB I had a lot of fun this semester. Stay in touch. We’ll grab some food some time. Have an amazing summer. Where are you? I’m in New Jersey, but I’m gonna be in and out of Philly and New York sometimes for things What about you,

JS California?

IB Yeah, that sunny weather to learn your blender. Preferably on a beach or something?

JS That might be hard haha.